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Amy Chen on Tech Law, U.S.–China Relations, and Building Community in the Legal Profession

Dean Austen Parrish interviews Amy Chen — U.S.–China consultant, inaugural president and co-founder of the Chinese American Lawyers Association of Orange County (CALA OC), and UC Irvine Law Board of Visitors member — about her two decades as a tech attorney in Hong Kong and California, her current advisory work on U.S.–China geopolitical issues, and her role in launching CALA OC to empower Chinese American legal professionals.

Chen also reflects on public interest service and offers advice for law students and new lawyers in a rapidly evolving legal world. 

(Listen on Spotify, Soundcloud or Apple Podcast) 

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Featuring:

• 

  Austen Parrish

  Dean and Chancellor’s Professor of Law
  University of California, Irvine School of Law
  
  

  Dean Parrish is a recognized expert in transnational law, civil procedure, constitutional law, and federal courts. He has written extensively on these topics, publishing numerous scholarly articles and co-authoring three books. His teaching spans a wide array of subjects, including Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Federal Courts, Transnational Law, International Environmental Law, and Public International Law. A prominent leader in legal education, he currently serves as president of the Association of American Law Schools, sits on the board of the AccessLex Institute, and is co-editor of the Journal of Legal Education. He is also an elected member of the American Law Institute and a fellow of the American Bar Foundation.

• 

  Amy Chen

  U.S.–China Consultant
  
  Amy Chen is a U.S.–China consultant who advises corporate and non-profit organizations on geopolitical strategy and regulatory matters. She serves on the boards of the Yale Jackson School of Global Affairs, Yale-China, and UC Irvine School of Law, and is a member of the National Committee on U.S.-China Relations. She is the inaugural president and co-founder of the Chinese American Lawyers Association of Orange County (CALA OC).

  For over 20 years, as an attorney based in Hong Kong and then California, Amy developed expertise in various areas at the intersection of law, business, policy and U.S.-China relations, including antitrust, anti-corruption, capital markets, CFIUS, crisis management, data security, intellectual property and technology licensing. During this period, Amy worked for several multinational technology companies, including Alibaba during its startup stage, Juniper Networks, Broadcom and Ingram Micro. Amy started her career with Simpson Thacher & Bartlett in New York.

Podcast Transcript

INTRO: Welcome to UCI Law Talks from the University of California, Irvine School of Law. For all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.

Austen Parrish: Thank you for joining us. My name is Austen Parish. I'm the dean and a chancellor's professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. And this is UCI Law Talks, the podcast where you learn more about the amazing anteater community that is UC Irvine School of Law and get to hear from leaders and lawyers of Southern California today. I'm extremely pleased that Amy Chen is joining us. Amy is a US-China consultant who currently serves as the inaugural president and co-founder of the Chinese American Lawyers Association of Orange County. Amy also serves as a member of the law school's Board of Visitors. She lectures on US-China relations at UC Irvine Osher Lifelong Learning Institute is a member of the Yale-china Board of Trustees, and a member of the Board of Advisors for the Yale Jackson School of Global Affairs. For over 20 years, she was a tech attorney based in Hong Kong and then in California, working for multinational tech companies including Alibaba during its startup stage, Juniper Networks, Broadcom and Ingram Micro. Amy started her career with Simpson, Thacher & Bartlett in New York. Amy. So fabulous to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.

Amy Chen: Thank you Austen. It's fun to be here.

Austen Parrish: Amy, to get things started. I'd love to begin by asking you about your career. When you were in law school, did you have any idea that you'd become a tech attorney, or did you know you wanted to become a tech attorney? And did you have any idea you'd become a consultant focused on US-China relations?

Amy Chen: When I was in law school, I had no idea that in a few years the internet would explode and revolutionize our lives. So no, I had no idea that this is the path my career would take. I've always held an interest in China, but there was no way I could plot out a career that would leave me at this point, focusing on US-China issues.

Austen Parrish: How did you get into that? I have to say, most people that I know, they also couldn't have predicted exactly how their career would have taken the twists and turns that it did. How when you were at Simpson Thacher, how did you start going in-house and how did that all come to pass?

Amy Chen: Sure. In between college and law school, I actually spent two years living and working in Hong Kong for an American law firm that no longer exists. Q Dear brothers, and that was an amazing experience that really changed the trajectory of my career and life, because Hong Kong just completely captivated me. So I knew that I would want to go back to Hong Kong after law school. So I came here for law school, started in New York with Simpson, and we had an understanding. Simpson had a small presence in Hong Kong that it wanted to develop. So the idea was I would get trained in New York and go out to Hong Kong, and that's what happened. And at the end of 1999, Around that time, the internet took off in Asia, so I had the opportunity to join Alibaba during its startup phase. And that's what shifted me from law firm to in-house and into the whole world of technology.

Austen Parrish: What an amazing experience and what a great time to be in Hong Kong. Those were great days in the late 1990s.

Austen Parrish: Yes, and it was really a window into China as the economy really started to take of. In 1999, China had not yet joined the WTO. Its legal system was still trying hard to catch up to the pace of economic development. So it was the Wild West in many ways. There certainly weren't many laws governing the internet space. So it was just a very pioneering and exciting time.

Austen Parrish: That was my sense. I got to visit there in 1990s. A lot of energy. Also great food. You've worked for so many significant companies. When you look back, are there particular experiences that you remember most vividly that stick out to you?

Amy Chen: I'd say Alibaba was very special. Again, it was a startup experience, so we had no revenues. All we had was some venture capital funding. It was a very bilingual bicultural company, mostly Chinese, of course, because it was based in Hangzhou, China. But my boss had started the Hong Kong office and that really brought in the international component. We really wanted to be professional from the beginning with a legal system, documented contracts, good paperwork in place, all of that amidst just the usual craziness and chaos of a startup. It was just extremely exciting to be a part of that.

Austen Parrish: Yeah, and this is part of the dot-com boom, I guess, occurring at the same time throughout the world, right?

Amy Chen: Yes. Asia was a little behind the US, but once it took off in China, it was really thrilling. The Chinese business models evolved over time. Initially, they seemed to mimic the American Internet companies, but they really took on a life of their own. And in typical startup lore, there was an apartment in Hangzhou, China, where Jack Ma and his co-founders worked from, and that apartment was a place that we frequently visited when we went on business trips to Hangzhou. So again, it was just a special moment.

Austen Parrish: Amy, you currently work as a strategic consultant, and you advise corporate and non-profit organizations on US-China, both geopolitical and regulatory matters. What does that entail and what are you seeing giving the trade wars and the tariffs that have been in play for most of this past year?

Amy Chen: Yeah, this intense competition between the US and China has resulted in antagonism between the two governments. And that means that each government, with a focus on national security, has pushed out a raft of evolving laws and policies that really create a complex environment for corporates and non-profit organizations to operate in. Often these laws and policies are conflicting in terms of the tariffs and trade war. For example, a lot of business executives weren't prepared to handle these issues. It's not something they learned in business school. Recently, there's been speculation that the Supreme Court will rule that President Trump was not legally authorized to impose the tariffs, which means there's been this mad scramble among major companies to prepare to seek tariff refunds. So again, all of this is outside the normal course of business for most executives, they need to have certain – they like certainty because they need to make investment decisions. They need to think six months, 12 months, two years down the line. And in an environment of uncertainty and complexity, they can't really do that. With all this geopolitical and regulatory uncertainty, it means more risk and more costs. And so it's challenging and intellectually stimulating, frankly, to help people navigate this landscape. Nonprofits face a similar situation.

Austen Parrish: Here's an almost impossible question, but I'll ask it anyway. What do you see in the future of US-China relations? Where do you think it's going to go?

Amy Chen: Yeah, China has become a peer competitor to the US in every way: in the economy, technology, military strength. And that's really new for US political leaders. So I think we're going to have to accept a continued period of competition and tension. But my hope is that sober minds will prevail. Our economies are so intertwined that if you try to pull them apart through tariffs, export controls and sanctions, there's going to be a high cost. And the high cost means that citizens in both countries suffer. So the governments in both countries are going to have to find a way to protect their national security while also engaging with the other country. I hope, in meaningful and constructive ways. If they can't find a way to do it, the consequences would be terrible. Not only economic, but if there's poor communication, for example, or misunderstanding that could lead to military conflict. And if a military conflict escalates into a war, that's catastrophic not just for the two countries, but really for the world. So that's a short answer to a very complex question. But I'm hopeful. And there are many people, I think, working diligently towards that. But it's going to be a process.

Austen Parrish: Yeah, I know in the higher education space there's still a lot of hunger to continue to collaborate and partner and work together, but it certainly has become more difficult over the last few years than it was previously in order to make those connections. Let me change gears a little bit. You're incredibly busy on that front. There's a lot going on, but as with many other people that we often interview at UCI Law Talks, you've also been deeply connected and you volunteer in so many ways in your local community. But more broadly, I know you've served on the board of the Public Law Center, a nonprofit focused on providing legal services to low income and poor families in Orange County. I mentioned at the start of the interview that many other boards that you serve on, can you describe the importance of the work to you in your community engagement and volunteer work?

Amy Chen: Sure. I think society flourishes when we all care more about each other. Public Law Center is a great example. Through my involvement with them, I've really been able to learn about poverty related issues in Orange County in a way that I wouldn't be able to just from reading the news. I also think it's being involved in public interest public service. It's a great antidote to feeling frustrated and depressed about all the bad things that are happening in the world. With organizations like PLC, you see the great work that their staff does in very practical ways to alleviate suffering and help real people resolve problems in their daily lives. It's very tangible. And sometimes I think many of us in the practice of law, we feel removed from that. We're involved with businesses and other issues. So it feels good to walk alongside the team at PLC. Our contributions as board members can vary depending on people's time and interest. But it's rewarding to feel like you're part of that solution, and it's uplifting to see the good work that they do.

Austen Parrish: Yeah, there's such a need there for them, so it's it's great to see them doing such good work. If I look back at all the stuff that you volunteered, not just recently, but throughout your career, are there? I should ask you the same question I asked you about your work experience. Are there particular volunteer opportunities that particularly stand out to you?

Amy Chen: So this is a softball because I'm going to say serving on your board, Austen. The UCI Board of Visitors has been rewarding. It's still a fairly young law school, and so it's fun to be part of something that is still growing. I think we found a happy intersection where my interests coincide with a need of the school, and that's in the Global Students program. So it's been really fun for me to get to know your assistant Dean Khary, meet some of the students, especially the Chinese students, and hear their stories. And on the board itself, there are so many interesting people. I just had lunch with your last podcast interviewee to hear her story of moving from being a high powered lawyer to an art photographer. I've just joined this new committee. I'm really excited about that. I don't know how much is public, so I'll just say that for me, it's a chance to work with some of the most, some of the smartest lawyers in Orange County on a topic that's very timely. All lawyers should be thinking about. It has national relevance, and I wouldn't be able to do that in any other form. So I'm grateful for the opportunity and it's fun. I think by being involved in the community, serving on these boards, you get to learn new skills that you might not in your workplace. It's a place to also use your leadership and other skills, and you meet people who are outside your normal circles. That's very enriching.

Austen Parrish: We're really grateful that you're part of the board. It's, as you say, it's really a remarkable group of people and the commitment to the law school is being part of this broader community. It's just absolutely fantastic. And yeah, it helps me as a dean to get such great advice from people who've seen the legal profession and the broader kind of business and nonprofit world from so many different perspectives. And so thank you for all you do for us. Do you have advice for new lawyers and law students about public service or the importance of public interest work? I think some of that was buried in your last answer, but I'll ask you that one anyway. Is to your advice there?

Amy Chen: Yeah. I think this is one of the areas where UCI Law School really excels. So there are a lot of great opportunities for students. For both students and legal practitioners, the challenge is finding time, but I think it's very worth it. It complements our regular work. Sometimes we feel like, again, our work is with corporations or dealing with issues and situations that don't directly affect people in our daily lives and they're very, very real problems. It's really a way to get connected with our communities. I think it also brings out the noble aspect of our profession. Many of us originally went to law school with idealistic, lofty goals. And then life happens. You just get busy immersed in your career and personal life. And so public interest and public service is an opportunity to go back to those youthful ideals, because there are a lot of people doing terrific work serving the community, helping alleviate suffering, and using the law to bring justice into realms of darkness. And all of that is very satisfying.

Austen Parrish: Yeah, so well said, Amy. Amy, you've also been really busy in other ways. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about the Chinese American Lawyers Association of Orange County. You're the current and inaugural president and one of its co-founders. CALA OC was founded just last year, and you played a key role in its creation. Can you talk a little bit about CALA OC, how it was started and who else was involved in its founding?

Amy Chen: Sure. This has been an immensely rewarding project for the last couple of years. Over the years, different people have talked about starting a Chinese bar. It seems like we're the only major ethnic group in Orange County that doesn't have one. And then in the summer of 2023, over lunch, a friend said, let's do it. Let's set up a Chinese bar. So I gathered a few friends and invited them to my home for dinner, and we discussed, is there interest? Is there a legitimate need? And the five of us who were gathered concluded that the time was ripe. We saw that over the decades, the Chinese population in Orange County has really swelled. And with that has come a greater need for lawyers to provide a variety of services to the Chinese community, and often the demand is for that legal service to be done in Chinese. At the same time, because of the deterioration in US-China relations, there's a direct impact on Chinese Americans. It's a challenging time. For example, the Justice Department had a China initiative where they were targeting people of Chinese descent who work as researchers and scientists, accusing them of being spies for the Chinese Communist Party and/or stealing IP. The vast majority of those cases did not get successfully prosecuted. Many of them were instances of clerical errors. Just small errors on grant filings. And yet those professors, those researchers, their lives were ruined. And this isn't the first time this has happened, unfortunately. It's very reminiscent of the McCarthy Era Red Scare. But there weren't too many Chinese people in America back then. There are now. And we feel like as lawyers, we have a certain role and responsibility in this period to advocate for our community and also educate our community. So we felt like there were a number of reasons why, in this moment, we need to have a Chinese American Lawyers Association in Orange County.

Austen Parrish: And that makes a lot of sense. I was going to ask you, there's the Southern California Chinese Lawyers Association, and there's also the Orange County Asian American Bar Association. I think you've already answered a little bit, but I was going to ask you, how does CALA OC see fit into those other two organizations? It sounds like there's just a lot of work to go around.

Amy Chen: Yeah, we're really blessed here to have so many terrific bar associations. SCCLA, the one in LA, they're terrific. The president at the time of our founding was very helpful to us, very supportive, and we will find ways to work together. It's just a practical impediment for us to drive to LA. We can't do it regularly and be involved. OCKABA is also terrific, and in fact, many of our members are former presidents there. The issue is that they're meant to be a pan-Asian bar, and we felt it was inappropriate to try to steer them toward focusing on these Chinese issues. So it was just better for us to form a new bar. We also sensed that while there are these terrific bars in Orange County, there are still a lot of Chinese American attorneys who haven't found a home in any of them who aren't involved. And so we've gone out and actively looked for them and invited them in. And we have discovered that there's such a rich tapestry of Chinese American lawyers here in Orange County that, frankly, I didn't even realize we have our American born Chinese, the ABCs, the American born Taiwanese ABTs. We have a large cohort of first generation mainland Chinese, meaning they grew up and were educated. Most of them through college in China. And then they immigrated here as adults and continued their studies. They received JDs and practiced law here. And so it's been really fun to blend all these different backgrounds together. We speak several Chinese dialects. Many people at a native level. We've been putting on programs that help us grow professionally and educate ourselves.

Amy Chen: So, for example, our first speaker event was on ... We called it Insecurity: The Impact of China Relations on Trade and Investment and Civil Rights. And I haven't seen any organization package those issues together in one talk. But that's the reality for Chinese Americans. These tensions affect business and civil rights. And we had two terrific speakers from our own community, including one of your professors. Second speaker event was a free CLE that we opened up to everyone, regardless of whether they were a member of CALA OC or not. And it was on a cutting edge topic cryptocurrency and blockchain. Again, we were pleased to have two speakers from our community. We cheated on one of them. He's from LA, but he's a friend and supporter and the other woman is based in OC. She's in-house at Coinbase. They gave a terrific talk on cutting edge legal issues, and what's really interesting to me is that both of their organizations, one a law firm and one a big crypto company, because this field of law is so new and developing, they actually have a hand in shaping the unfolding policy and legislation. They have – their colleagues are testifying before Congress, talking to regulators. And we have these resources right here in Orange County. We're learning from them. So that's very stimulating and rewarding. And I'm getting a little far from your original question, but I get very excited talking about CALA OC. There's just a lot of potential. And in this our first year, we've started executing on things.

Austen Parrish: You guys have been really busy. I have to say, I had the privilege of being able to attend your opening gala, which was just fabulous. It was at the Bowers Museum. Can you describe a little bit about the gala, the thinking behind that? I think it captures some of the things you were just talking about, of what a what a vibrant community it is. And you had so many people attend that night. But maybe you can talk to the a little bit about the gala?

Amy Chen: Sure. We were thrilled that over 160 people came really strong, showing from Orange County based Chinese American attorneys, but then many others, including leaders from the Chinese community. So we chose the Bowers Museum first because it's a beautiful setting, but also because it has a deep history of promoting understanding and education of Chinese arts and culture in this area. So the long time chairwoman of the museum was a guest at our gala and she graciously opened up the art galleries. Which they don't usually do for events like this. Bowers also represents one of the first and important Orange County institutions where a lot of Chinese philanthropists got involved, and that's another one of our goals at CALA OC is to encourage our members to get involved in the community in civic life. I think culturally, perhaps, we have a tendency to keep our heads down, study hard, work hard, take care of our families, and that's it. But we really want to encourage each other that in America, we've got to get involved in the larger community, serve, contribute, just be involved. And over time, when more of us do that, we're going to be more visible as a community. And hopefully that serves to counter the perception that we're always the foreigner the other, or we're not even seen at all. I mean, there are some structural issues in society and you can talk about racism, but we'd like to focus on what can we do? We need to be accountable to. And so as lawyers, we want to push each other to do this and to link up with other Chinese organizations that have been very successful in getting involved. So another one of our guests was the longtime CEO of the South Coast Chinese Cultural Association, a wonderful organization that also tries to promote understanding and build bridges by teaching people about Chinese arts and culture and language.

Austen Parrish: It was a great event, and there was there was a lot of energy and I think people had a great time. So I don't think you could have started the organization off on a better first step than the gala last year. That was it was terrific. Congratulations.

Amy Chen: Thank you. And I should also say that we had an outstanding keynote speaker. Justice Goodwin Liu from the California Supreme Court. He gave an inspirational talk, and he addressed an issue that's dear to his heart in which we care about, too, which is the dearth of Chinese Americans at the upper echelons of the legal profession. We enter law school and big firms in large numbers, but when you get to the top ranks, law firm partnership GC is a major corporations. Our numbers dwindle. And he cited some of the research that shows some of the reasons and some of the reasons are cultural. So we've decided to tackle this. We have designed our first professional development program, which we're going to roll out in January and February. It's called Thrive: Breaking the Bamboo Ceiling. We have hired two Chinese American executive coaches, and we're designing with them a series of three specially curated interactive workshops where they're going to guide us through these issues, how to navigate the tension between our cultural upbringing and American corporate values. For example, most of us grew up in families. Even me, I'm American born. I feel very American, but my parents were very Chinese. And that's true of many of our members. So in our families, we grew up with values that emphasized humility and deference to authority. But in the American corporate world, to advance, you need to be comfortable with self promotion, making yourself visible, being assertive. And so we hope that this program will really help our members reconcile these tensions in ways that feel natural and authentic.

Austen Parrish: Great program. As I say, Justice Liu is study there with the American Bar Foundation. It's been really influential. And I know they're I think they're on the third stage now of the report. But the first two stages were really, I think, revealed things that people didn't quite quite know about Asian Americans in the legal profession. And, as you say, the dearth of positions at the very top echelons. And so that's great that you're playing a role in that. And that sounds like a fabulous initiative that might lead to the next question. What are the broad goals of the association? You've talked about the events, the bringing together the community, this new initiative, but are there broader goals that you guys that the founders initially envisioned?

Amy Chen: Sure. We articulated our vision this way. We want to develop, empower and elevate Chinese American contributions to the legal community and civic life of Orange County. And many of the things I've been describing to you fall under that description. So on one level, we're here for camaraderie and friendship. There are ways in which we can refer jobs and business to each other. One of the things that the research shows is that in order to advance, you need networks and you need mentorship and sponsorship. So that begins by creating an environment where people feel safe and comfortable and they can look for mentors. And then we want to grow together professionally. So I mentioned the speaker events that we have already held and they were really meaty topics as well as this professional development program. So professional growth is another important component. But it's not meant to just feed individual success. What we really want to encourage is lifting each other up, lifting up our community, and pushing ourselves to again, get engaged in the larger community of Orange County. All facets of Orange County life. There are so many ways to get involved. People who are interested in the arts can get involved in museums or theatre. Other people can involve in public public interest organizations. The idea is to encourage people to go beyond just working hard and going home, and I think people will find it individually rewarding, but it also serves the community better.

Austen Parrish: I think that's right. Are there other things that our listeners should know about CALA OC, and are there future events of note that we should note for them?

Amy Chen: In January, we're going to start a new year, and we have some exciting new initiatives that will roll out. I don't want to give them all away, but one thing we want to do is to go deeper. We really laid a strong foundation this year and next year we can go deeper. We want to find ways to feed and nourish our people at every stage of their careers. So one area we'd like to strengthen next year is our young lawyers. And we have some people in place and some ideas. So we welcome people to check out our website and get involved.

Austen Parrish: And if they wanted to get involved, what's the easiest way for them to do that?

Amy Chen: Yeah, our website is easy. It's CALAOC.org. They can read about us and see what kind of events we've have. There's a way to subscribe to our newsletter and our email address is there. So if they want to contact us directly with inquiries or express their interest, they can. And we have a few people who are not of Chinese background who have become members because they align with our mission. And some of them, they speak Chinese, which is very interesting.

Austen Parrish: We'll be sure to include a link podcast notes so that people can get straight to the website. You mentioned earlier about the great work you've helped us with our global programs. We have JD students who are Chinese and of course Chinese American or who have lived some time in China. And we have a large number of foreign lawyers who study at UC Irvine to earn their graduate LL.M. degree. In your mind, why is Orange County a good place to study and practice law?

Amy Chen: Sure. I think coming from another country, it can be a daunting experience to quickly have to adjust. Focus on your studies. Orange County provides a very safe, comfortable environment that's easy to transition to. We have wonderful outdoor activities for those who are interested in sports and the outdoors. We have a rich array of arts and cultural offerings too, for people who want to explore those areas. So in addition to their studies, they can really feel that they're growing in other ways. Learning about American life. And the adjustment is made easier by the fact that there is a large Chinese community here. So just in terms of daily comforts like grocery stores and restaurants, those are readily available. It just makes for a very comfortable and easy transition, so people can focus on their studies and enjoy learning about America.

Austen Parrish: And a great bar association to get connected with, too, as soon as they arrive. If you had advice for new lawyers who are just getting started in their legal or business careers, and you look back at your own sort of lessons learned, what advice would you convey?

Amy Chen: A few things. So I think in law school, I wish I had taken a couple of courses outside of my natural interest area. I was so focused on corporate, but it would have been nice to have taken an intellectual property course or something on alternative dispute resolution. And so for each person, that'll be different. But school is a great time to explore intellectually. Be curious. And who knows, you might stumble onto something that really captivates you. And even if it doesn't, it may end up helping you down the road in ways that you can't expect up front. In terms of practicing law for young lawyers, I think the reality is this is a rigorous, demanding profession. So for those whose primary objective is lifestyle. Frankly, this may not be the right profession. I think in the early years there needs to be a commitment to hard work. The only way to become a really good lawyer is through investing many hours of intensive work. I don't think there's any shortcut. None that I know of. So I would encourage young lawyers to persevere and to make that commitment. I also think it's important to go into the office. I've heard some of my friends who are our partners at very respectable firms here. Convey a sense of disappointment that the young lawyers don't want to go in. So if you're a young lawyer who does go into the office, that's going to be an advantage. So much of the early years is really, I think of it almost like an apprenticeship. You're learning the craft of lawyering, and the best way to learn is in person, side by side. The partners are all going into the office, and so it's really a great opportunity to learn. The payoff comes when you've accumulated years of experience and people view you as a trusted advisor. For me, that's the most rewarding part of being a lawyer.

Austen Parrish: That's good advice. We've definitely seen the change. I think two years ago there was quite a few partners who were not coming in as often, and that has certainly changed this year. The number of firms that have moved to either mandatory five 0 or 4 one schedules for partners and are tracking now the time in person is. I think there's almost an article every day about it, so I couldn't agree with you more about associates getting that sort of personal connection time. Maybe a follow up question if there were students that were interested in US-China relations, particularly, are there specific advice that you'd have for them?

Amy Chen: Yeah, that's that's something I'd love to hear. For Americans, I really encourage them to go to China. There's no way to learn about China simply by sitting at home and taking in social media and reading books. All of that is good and fine. But to experience China firsthand is an extraordinary thing. You will encounter people and see things that simply are not captured by mainstream media. I'm disappointed, speaking candidly, that Western mainstream media, I think, does not provide a multifaceted, accurate portrayal of China. And so I think it's very important for people to go there and see it for themselves. In terms of keeping up on the developments in these issues because they are evolving quickly. You touched on some of them. Tariffs, the trade war. In addition to the mainstream media, there are some great organizations that provide information like the National Committee on US-China relations. It's been around for decades. Some of the most prominent fortune 500 corporations CEOs are a part of this, and they put out terrific webinars and newsletters. They try to be objective. They're nonpartisan, and their goal is to promote greater understanding. So for those interested in US-China relations, go to China and keep up on the developments. And there are some great resources available.

Austen Parrish: Yeah, I think that's good advice too. I've been fortunate. I've gone to Beijing a few times and I was surprised actually, even over a five year period, how much things had changed because things were moving very quickly.

Amy Chen: Exactly, Yes.

Austen Parrish: I don't think this is true. Somebody did joke to me that given the traffic in LA, it might be quicker to get to Beijing! Do you have any last words for our listeners? Things that ... advice either for students or advice for young lawyers, or just general thoughts about your own career that you want to leave us with?

Amy Chen: I think law is a demanding but rewarding profession, and I encourage people to craft their own path. It does start with a lot of hard work, but be curious. Take on projects that you might not be immediately attracted to. It's important to build relationships, so you have to invest in that as well. I think we're in a critical time. This is an extraordinary moment in American history as well as global history, because the whole post-World War II world order is shifting. And so it's stressful in many ways. But that also presents opportunities for lawyers because there are all these new areas that are starting to blossom. AI the most obvious, but there are so many ways to become an expert in a cutting edge area. So much potential. I think this is a great time for young lawyers.

Austen Parrish: Let's leave it there. Amy, it's been absolutely terrific. Thank you so much for joining us and for being a guest on UCI Law Talks.

Amy Chen: Thank you Austen, thank you for your leadership of this law school.

Austen Parrish: Thanks so much.

OUTRO: Thank you for listening to UCI Law Talks. For all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.