Veronica Gray on Her Distinguished Career from Master’s Degree in Spanish and Latin American Literature, to Employment Lawyer and Photographer
Dean Austen Parrish interviews Veronica Gray, retired Partner at Nossaman LLP and a member of the UC Irvine Law Board of Visitors, about her employment law career — and how her decision to pursue a law degree stemmed from her experience as a Spanish language translator for courtroom proceedings; the importance of giving back to your community; and her parallel, impressive photography career and passion.
(Listen on Spotify, Soundcloud or Apple Podcast)
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Austen Parrish
Dean and Chancellor’s Professor of Law
University of California, Irvine School of LawDean Parrish is a recognized expert in transnational law, civil procedure, constitutional law, and federal courts. He has written extensively on these topics, publishing numerous scholarly articles and co-authoring three books. His teaching spans a wide array of subjects, including Civil Procedure, Constitutional Law, Federal Courts, Transnational Law, International Environmental Law, and Public International Law. A prominent leader in legal education, he currently serves as president of the Association of American Law Schools, sits on the board of the AccessLex Institute, and is co-editor of the Journal of Legal Education. He is also an elected member of the American Law Institute and a fellow of the American Bar Foundation.
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Veronica Gray
Retired Partner
Nossaman LLP
Veronica is a retired partner at Nossaman LLP and former Chair of the firm’s Employment Practice Group. She currently serves as a member of the Board of Visitors at the University of California, Irvine School of Law.A prominent trial attorney in Orange County, California, Veronica has 46 years of experience litigating and negotiating complex employment matters. Over the span of her career, she has also taken on leadership roles in many professional and philanthropic organizations on a local and international level with a focus on micro-enterprise and children's education.
Veronica has traveled extensively and has captured her view of the world which can be seen at https://veronicagrayphotography.com/
Featuring:
Podcast Transcript
Podcast Transcript
00:00:05:11 - 00:00:22:28
Intro
Welcome to UCI Law Talks from the University of California, Irvine School of Law. For all our latest news, follow UCI Law on Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn.
00:00:23:01 - 00:00:41:02
Austen Parrish
Thank you for joining us. My name is Austen Parrish. I'm the dean and a chancellor's professor at the University of California, Irvine School of Law. This is UCI Law Talks, the podcast where you learn more about the amazing and eager community that is the law school and hear from leaders and lawyers of Southern California. Today, I'm very pleased that Veronica Gray is joining us.
00:00:41:03 - 00:01:06:09
Austen Parrish
Veronica is a member of the law school's Board of Visitors, an accomplished lawyer and prominent trial attorney for many years. Veronica served as a partner with Nossaman LLP and the chair of their employment practice group. Over an impressive career, Veronica has taken on leadership roles in many professional and philanthropic organizations with a focus on microenterprise and children's education. And she's also a gifted and wonderful photographer. Veronica, thank you so much for joining the podcast today.
00:01:07:03 - 00:01:12:08
Veronica Gray
Thank you for that wonderful introduction. Yes, it is my pleasure to be here today.
00:01:12:10 - 00:01:25:18
Austen Parrish
Veronica, I'd love to start off by speaking with you about your career. And I mentioned your partner, a retired partner from Nossaman, and you headed their employment practice. Can you describe a little bit about what your practice entailed and talk a little bit about the Nossaman firm?
00:01:25:24 - 00:01:59:22
Veronica Gray
Certainly, just by way of background, about ten years before I joined Nossaman, I started specializing in employment law, (I was) a general litigator for many years, serviced all types of clients, all cases, and then the legal field changed. It got way more complicated and law firms were changing into practice groups. When I interviewed with Nossaman, they were looking for someone to chair their employer practice group and that was enticing to me to take that leadership position.
00:02:00:00 - 00:02:21:27
Veronica Gray
And this was in 2005. And I also knew if I switched law firms it was going to be where I retired. I knew that ... I didn't have any idea when I was going to retire, but I knew the firm I chose would be the place. And Austen, then and now, Nossaman is just a very special place that cares about the people that it employs.
00:02:21:27 - 00:02:52:04
Veronica Gray
And that's including all the partners, equity or otherwise, and the staff, and it really cares about its clients. I knew it was the right culture for me and I could thrive and my practice could survive. And the reason, by way of background, also the way I got so involved in employment law is I was doing a lot of trade secret litigation and typically trade secret cases evolve from employees taking employers’ information to a competitor.
00:02:52:06 - 00:03:21:03
Veronica Gray
And you really have to get inside the inside of the company to really represent the client appropriately and understand what they do. That's really how I changed my direction to specialize in employment law. And going back to your initial question, it is so broad based and what are the advantages? It's not only litigation, but there's a transactional side and not all areas of law have that balance, so to speak.
00:03:21:05 - 00:03:51:10
Veronica Gray
And we did everything from counseling clients and drafting handbooks and doing seminars on harassment and discrimination, but defended those cases, and wrongful termination and all the leave laws and the writing of the handbooks and trade secret litigation, defending wage and hour class actions. So the scope was extremely broad. And the other thing that was exciting but challenging about employment law, it was constantly changing.
00:03:51:12 - 00:04:12:23
Veronica Gray
New cases were coming out every year. There was new legislation that we had to not only educate ourselves but educate our clients. So we did seminars on that and we wrote monthly alerts on what new cases had come out. So it really kept you on your toes. No two cases were ever alike. So it's a very exciting area of law to practice in.
00:04:12:26 - 00:04:24:18
Austen Parrish
When I talk to people, that idea of constant change and evolution is one of the things I think people really like about being a lawyer in many areas. Every case is a new case and a new moment. It sounds like you felt that way a lot with your practice.
00:04:24:20 - 00:04:34:21
Veronica Gray
Absolutely. And I always found law very creative, not only is it the knowledge that you have to acquire, but then what do you do with it?
00:04:34:24 - 00:05:00:25
Veronica Gray
How do you represent that client to the fullest within the boundaries of the law? So it requires creativity and a lot of strategizing, and I enjoyed that, especially as a trial lawyer. You have to be a storyteller. You have to write the play. You just don't get to act and play in all the parts. But you really have to create that environment to be successful, at least from my perspective.
00:05:00:27 - 00:05:02:19
Veronica Gray
And that was very exciting.
00:05:02:21 - 00:05:13:06
Austen Parrish
I like the way you think about that. When you were in law school taking you back or when you graduated law school, did you know what kind of law you wanted to practice? Did you think you were going to become an employment lawyer, or how did your character develop?
00:05:13:09 - 00:05:21:18
Veronica Gray
No, I did not know I was going to be an employment lawyer, but I knew what I was going to do because my career path is a little bit different.
00:05:21:25 - 00:06:05:15
Veronica Gray
So I majored in undergraduate, I majored in Spanish, and I was at Syracuse University getting my masters degree in Spanish and Latin American literature, and I was going to have the life of the “ivory tower.” I was going to publish or perish, and teach. And as a graduate student, I was already teaching freshmen and sophomores in Spanish and taking all my seminars in Latin American literature and the ... so I was part of the romance language department at Syracuse, and we had a large Hispanic community, and they called the romance language department to have translators come in to court.
00:06:05:17 - 00:06:31:07
Veronica Gray
And there is this 24 year old, between the judge and the attorneys translating. And I was just overtaken by the power of the courtroom. It was amazing to me. And I was just finishing up my master's and I intended to go on for my doctorate. And at the time I was married to a medical student. If he had gotten a dual degree, he would have been law and medicine.
00:06:31:14 - 00:06:56:27
Veronica Gray
So he was very encouraging. Well apply to Syracuse. You get in and you go, you don't get in, you'll go for your doctorate. The rest is history. But I always had that safety net if I didn't like the law, which didn't turn out to be the case, that I could go back and do my doctorate. But I did know that I wanted to use my Spanish and I wanted to work for an organization like Legal Services Corporation.
00:06:57:00 - 00:07:20:09
Veronica Gray
So I did know that. And then we relocated out to California for his internship, and I did ... So I graduated from Pepperdine. I transferred from Syracuse Law to Pepperdine. I did clinical work for of the Legal Aid Society of Orange County very early on, and I knew that's what I wanted to do and that's what I did for the first three years of my career.
00:07:20:16 - 00:07:22:25
Veronica Gray
Who knows? Right. Don’t look back.
00:07:22:27 - 00:07:33:17
Austen Parrish
Well I was going to say, moving from Syracuse to Pepperdine, is a big change just with weather. What do you remember of those first couple of years working for Legal Aid? Was it a good experience. A great experience?
00:07:33:18 - 00:07:42:12
Veronica Gray
It was a wonderful experience. The lawyers are so dedicated and you're just trying to change people's lives, make it better.
00:07:42:14 - 00:08:12:21
Veronica Gray
And that's how I really did my first litigation cases, because we really weren't doing transactional work for those living below the poverty level. But you were dealing with child custody cases, unlawful detainer's, really the, really basic, important issues to people, and it was challenging because you have unwed mothers, you have people on food stamps and welfare who are not employed and it's challenging to change their position in life.
00:08:12:26 - 00:08:24:03
Veronica Gray
You know, you want to protect everybody and give them a better life. And it was extremely challenging from a social perspective. But the work was very gratifying and the staff was incredible.
00:08:24:05 - 00:08:34:25
Austen Parrish
Yeah, it's an amazing organization. You've had such an impressive career and you've practice at the highest levels. If you look back, are there a couple of milestones that really stand out most to you in reflection?
00:08:34:25 - 00:08:42:17
Austen Parrish
A couple of things that just you feel most proud of or things that just stick in your mind as things that were instrumental in the way you developed as a lawyer?
00:08:42:22 - 00:08:55:19
Veronica Gray
That's a great question and it's challenging to answer that. But I was mentored along the way by a lot of different people who really impacted the directions I took.
00:08:55:22 - 00:09:19:07
Veronica Gray
It wasn't like obvious that they caused me to change things, but just speaking to people and mentoring ... of how to practice law and what to do with your career really helped a lot. But what you find is when you make decisions leaving legal services and going into private practice, that was a major change in the direction I took and that impacted the rest of my practice.
00:09:19:07 - 00:09:44:17
Veronica Gray
I practiced for 46 years and I made that switch after the first three years for various reasons. And along the way just people have helped me and I've reached out for help and that's something I would share with anyone. Sometimes the road is a little rocky, bumps in the road, so to speak, and you need people that you can confide in and that you respect and trust to give you some advice.
00:09:44:17 - 00:10:04:01
Veronica Gray
At the same time, you have to follow your own intuition, what's really best for you. So I dealt with several different firms and each firm has a different culture. And as I said, when I switched to Nossaman to lead their employment practice group, that was a very important move for me, where I ended my career three years ago.
00:10:04:04 - 00:10:22:14
Austen Parrish
You've practiced, as you say, in a number of firms and legal aid and then private practice, But through it all, you've been very involved in the legal profession more broadly. You've held positions... the chair of the California State Bar Public Affairs Committee, the president of the Orange County Women Lawyers Association, a member of the board of directors of the Orange County Bar Association.
00:10:22:16 - 00:10:31:12
Austen Parrish
I mentioned that you're currently a member of the Board of Visitors of the Law School and I know I've left others off, but can you describe the importance of that work and why did you get involved?
00:10:31:15 - 00:11:00:07
Veronica Gray
It was always important for me to be involved in the community and when I relocated to Orange County in 1987 and joined Wyman Bautzer, I was fortunate enough to have Tom Malcolm as the managing partner of the Orange County office and those that know Tom, he was very visible in the legal community and he encouraged me to get involved as a way of getting to know people in Orange County.
00:11:00:10 - 00:11:20:06
Veronica Gray
And I took to it like a fish to water. It just was ... it fit my personality. My parents always told me to give first. Things will come to you, not that you're looking for something, but give of yourself. And I felt very fortunate to be an attorney in this community and to give back, so to speak. And it was very rewarding.
00:11:20:06 - 00:11:40:07
Veronica Gray
I met some incredible people along the way, so I got involved on a local level as well as with the state bar in several different aspects.
Austen Parrish
Is there one position or one experience that particularly stands out?
00:11:40:07 - 00:12:08:24
Veronica Gray
I think I was proud because I was the chair of the Public Affairs Committee and the bench bar committee kind of came under that. We didn't have one in Orange County. So I approached, now I don't even know if he's still with us, but it was Judge Tully Seymour, and together we formed theBench-Bar Committee and I thought that was ... that just spoke to me as an important accomplishment, among others. But it was all ... the whole thing was just very rewarding. I think I started out being on the California Young Lawyers representing our district, and you just meet people throughout the state and let me bring it up ...
00:12:08:27 - 00:12:36:14
Veronica Gray
That's the way I met now Justice Andrew Guilford. That's how I first met Andy after the state bar when he was still practicing, he mentored me on an issue that I needed some advice that I couldn't get of the partners in my firm at the time, and that as a thank you, I gave him two photographs I had taken of two Guatemalan girls on one of my trips, not knowing that Andy was a photographer himself.
00:12:36:17 - 00:13:05:19
Veronica Gray
And he really appreciated that gift. But he happened to mention it at the time to the dean of the Chapman Law School, who had an affection for lawyers, who had an artistic side. And he actually gave me my first photography show at the Chapman Law School. So ,it's just ... my point, just being like you're out there in the community and you're talking to people, one thing leads to the other, and that just started ...
00:13:05:19 - 00:13:19:08
Veronica Gray
From that I got a magazine article in Orange Coast and from that I got my first gallery show in Laguna Beach. So one thing just leads on to another, and that's just exciting when that happens.
00:13:19:10 - 00:13:27:09
Austen Parrish
That’s exciting. I want to talk to you both about your public interest work and then also your photography. Before I do that, you mentioned starting in the 1980s in Orange County.
00:13:27:09 - 00:13:43:13
Austen Parrish
It's changed so much over the years. Do you feel like you're almost part of like it's I've been stunned actually, how much it's grown in the last decade. But from your perspective, you must have been part of sort of the way we built Orange County's legal profession over those last three decades. Do you feel that?
00:13:43:15 - 00:14:06:22
Veronica Gray
No, absolutely. It was, notwithstanding how large Orange County is, it's a small community. And because it was new ... been here a long time, but it's new and there was a there was an opportunity for advancement on all different levels. I grew up in New York City and I love the theater. I loved going to art museums.
00:14:06:25 - 00:14:28:13
Veronica Gray
So there were other people, other professionals I met here along the way, a bank or an accountant. And we were chatting over lunch and we decided we should form a junior board for the South Coast Repertory. We weren't important enough yet in our careers or couldn't write the big checkbook yet. But we all wanted to get involved.
00:14:28:13 - 00:14:49:04
Veronica Gray
So we went to SCR, to the directors and proposed our idea and they thought it was great. We formed a junior board and from that, after doing that for three years, I graduated to the big board for nine years. So it's just one thing leads to another. But you had that opportunity here on all different levels, in all different ways.
00:14:49:04 - 00:14:52:09
Veronica Gray
I mean, from the Bar Association as well.
00:14:52:12 - 00:15:15:13
Austen Parrish
You've done a lot. You mentioned the board of trustees for the South Coast repertoire, but also, if I remember correctly, you were the board of directors of the Girl Scouts of Orange County and the Board of directors for the Orange County Museum of Art and the Legal Aid Society of Orange County, and maybe you could talk about some of those, and I'd be interested in your thoughts about how that wide view is important, was important to you as a lawyer in addition to being a community citizen.
00:15:15:16 - 00:15:35:09
Veronica Gray
I divided my time, and I didn't do all this at once, but the three segments were being active in the bar activities, locally and on a state bar level. And then, because of the art part of my life, that's what attracted me to South Coast Repertory and to the Orange County Museum of Art.
00:15:35:12 - 00:16:03:14
Veronica Gray
At the same time, there were certain nonprofits that just spoke to me. So whether it was helping girls, through the Girl Scouts, or I went on to the Council of Aging to 211, and United Way - the Women's Philanthropy Fund, it was just where I was at the time that I felt passionate about it. What I would recommend to anyone, just don't get involved or go on a board because it's a resume building.
00:16:03:17 - 00:16:14:23
Veronica Gray
You have to be passionate for the organization. So that was important to me and at different times, different things were more important to me and that's when I would get off one board and move on to another.
00:16:14:28 - 00:16:23:05
Austen Parrish
What a way to make an impact though, and give meaning to your life, but also to the practice of law. I'd love to talk about your passion for photography and how you got into that.
00:16:23:05 - 00:16:40:11
Austen Parrish
I know your work has been displayed at the Peter Blake Gallery, the Bowers Museum, the Newport Beach Library, the Quorum Gallery, the Sawdust Festival, John Wayne Airport, The City of Hope, the city of Laguna Beach. There's a long list and then dozens of galleries and in magazines. How did you get started? How did you get started with photography?
00:16:40:14 - 00:17:06:22
Veronica Gray
So, it was a diversion when I was in law school. Just something else to break up the studying, so to speak. I would go out and photograph, photographing objects, more abstract photography. That's what I initially started with. I also traveled a lot, always travel throughout my life, and I had a bucket list of ten places I had to go to if I died the next day.
00:17:06:25 - 00:17:28:04
Veronica Gray
And I went, I haven’t died. And I went to all those places, but I started photographing the people and I got closer and it was in your face. We referred to it as “In focus.” It was very close portraiture and the people knew that. I just really wanted to capture their portrait, and no hidden meaning.
00:17:28:11 - 00:17:57:29
Veronica Gray
And for years and years that's the only type of photography I did. And those were my first shows. That was my show at the Chapman. That was my first show at Peter Blake's Gallery. And I still do a lot of portraiture. It was probably the most meaningful portfolio I did. On my website, now there is a poem that was written by a friend of mine, Rebecca Ramos, that really saw what I saw when I was photographing.
00:17:57:29 - 00:18:21:15
Veronica Gray
And we read that at the Chapman exhibit. But what I will share as a trial lawyer, I was always representing people and had no trouble speaking in public except when it came to my photography. It was the most challenging presentation. Of course I've gotten over that now, but that was a pretty momentous occasion because I had never really shared my photography with the public.
00:18:21:17 - 00:18:50:09
Veronica Gray
But it got easier after that. From that, I got the Peter Blake show and I got the article in Orange Coast. And then during COVID, my perspective changed. I started doing very soft seascapes and that's evolved into landscapes and flower photography, a softer view. But the portraiture was just a very important part of my portfolio and still is.
00:18:50:12 - 00:19:02:17
Austen Parrish
They're stunningly beautiful. We're going to we're going to make sure we have a link to your website and encourage our listeners to take a look. Are there some pieces that you've done that you're most proud of, that you could identify that that our listeners might want to take a look at?
00:19:02:21 - 00:19:10:09
Veronica Gray
The websites divided into galleries and everything's called something-scape, landscape...
00:19:10:12 - 00:19:42:16
Veronica Gray
seascape, and the portfolios have evolved from where I'm evolving as a person. I just came back. I've just done three major trips this year. I was on my second full safari in September and focused on the big Tusker elephants, and I'm working on that portfolio right now and they are exquisite. It was like watching ballerinas. They travel as herds with their babies and they can be 10 or 20 of them, and it's just magical to watch them.
00:19:42:18 - 00:20:07:25
Veronica Gray
And that's just a very special part of the world. I also just came back from Scotland, and that's very moody, rocky coastlines and landscapes. And there's a different kind of beauty in that. And I can come home and set up a still life of a flower and make it very artistic. So, it's just all different parts of me that speak to me and it's my happy place.
00:20:07:27 - 00:20:09:06
Veronica Gray
What can I tell you?
00:20:09:06 - 00:20:22:10
Austen Parrish
Makes sense! Those last two places sounded spectacular, but you mentioned your ten bucket list and you've traveled extensively are there a couple of places that stand out that you particularly hold dear in your travels?
00:20:22:13 - 00:20:31:06
Veronica Gray
Great question. I think the continent of Africa has really spoken to me in a way, in a different way.
00:20:31:08 - 00:21:06:12
Veronica Gray
So it's been two safaris, which are totally separate. But in 2004, I lived in a small village called Takaungu, about a mile from the Indian Ocean and an hour outside of Mombasa. It was a jungle community, which is which has grown quite a bit in the 20 plus years. But I was at the Bowers Museum here in Orange County in the summer of 2004 and saw an exhibit by a photographer, Phil Borges, who lives out on an island outside of the state of Washington.
00:21:06:14 - 00:21:34:27
Veronica Gray
And he exhibited Tibetan portraits, which really resonated with me because that's ... I was taking portraits of indigenous people. And he had a nonprofit called Bridges to Understanding, and he would take small groups of other photographers as mentors to these remote places in the world. And his journey was to teach children how to communicate with children in other places, so we could understand each other's cultures.
00:21:34:29 - 00:21:54:23
Veronica Gray
That totally resonated with me. I left the exhibit. I called Phil. I told him who I was. He said, Do you have a laptop? I said, of course I have a laptop, I'm a lawyer. And he said, Do you have a camera? I said, Yes, I did. And that was my first venture into digital photography.
00:21:54:26 - 00:22:19:26
Veronica Gray
So I get on a plane and meet him in Mombasa. And for a month we lived in this village with six other photographers, and we actually made a digital film. We taught children between 12 and 17, and, all the equipment was donated by Canon, how to make pictures, and then we could circulate that around the world. And that trip led to other trips similar to that.
00:22:19:26 - 00:22:45:16
Veronica Gray
That's how I got to Ethiopia and worked out of the Hamlin Institute and did digital stories, and that's why I was on the (fistula) advisory board. So one thing always leads to another. I just follow my heart. But Africa, I have been to Ethiopia and Kenya and Cameroon, and that's all, all from that connection.
00:22:45:18 - 00:22:56:24
Austen Parrish
Pictures are stunning on your website and so people can get a glimpse. You mentioned the equipment, and I have to imagine the camera equipment is fairly sophisticated. But what was your first camera? How did you where did you get that? And you said you started taking photography in law school.
00:22:56:25 - 00:23:06:16
Veronica Gray
I got my first SLR from my former father-in-law. He conveniently left it behind on one of his trips from Chicago, and he never wanted it back.
00:23:06:22 - 00:23:25:06
Veronica Gray
And from that I evolved to different camera equipment and have gone from Canon now to Fuji
Austen Parrish
And is it all digital now?
Veronia Gray
I still have a darkroom, but it's all digital and it's all developed now online. There's Photoshop and other applications, but it's all on computer now. Yeah, totally different world.
00:23:25:08 - 00:23:30:16
Austen Parrish
You know, not long ago I was speaking with Dean Tiffany Lopez.
00:23:30:16 - 00:23:50:04
Austen Parrish
She's an amazing dean of UC Irvine Trevor School of Arts. And we were talking about how arts and arts education and really arts broadly is can be fabulous preparation for becoming a lawyer. And how many lawyers we have that have graduated with an arts background, and yet they continue to be artists and musicians and enjoy that part of their life.
00:23:50:09 - 00:23:58:16
Austen Parrish
Do you see any connections between your work as a lawyer and your work as an artist? I know you mentioned the creativity, but how did you balance both passions? Maybe talk a little more about.
00:23:59:05 - 00:24:10:15
Veronica Gray
Obviously there was, but it wasn't really on my conscious level as it is now. There's a book, I know one of the authors, I pulled it out, so I could get the correct title.
00:24:10:17 - 00:24:43:12
Veronica Gray
“Your Brain on Art” by Susan Magsamen and Ivy Ross. And it's an incredible book. It's the first book with science that's so readable, but it really talks about how art is your happy place, how it really nourishes your brain. We don't necessarily think about it, but a lot of times when I'm working on my portfolios, I have soft jazz on in the background and it's just the right setting or I'm working in total silence and I never listened to music when I was writing a brief.
00:24:43:15 - 00:25:06:19
Veronica Gray
I think it's part of that creativity that I found in law where I find I'm trying to take photography, I'm trying to take it past the realism, putting my own perception on it, my own emotion. And even when I take a portrait, I'm not going to do a lot of post-production work. You don't want to distort or change someone's face where in seascapes or landscapes,
00:25:06:21 - 00:25:27:21
Veronica Gray
I take that privilege. I have the ability to do that. Some people may like it, some people may not. In law you have to stay within certain ... with the rule of law you have to stay within the boundaries. But I saw a lot of creativity, as I said, with that, and I think it's just something inside me. I never knew I was going to get so involved in photography.
00:25:27:21 - 00:25:48:08
Veronica Gray
I knew my parting words to my partners at Nossaman, and that's what I was going to go and do. But I truly didn't realize how important it would be to me. I'm basically doing it full time. I'm always working on some new portfolio, some new exhibit. It's really a feel good feeling. It's very peaceful and it's solitary.
00:25:48:09 - 00:26:03:07
Veronica Gray
It's you can go out with a group of people like some of the trips I take, but you're creating your own work and we can all look at the same view and come out with totally different images. You're putting yourself into your body of work.
00:26:03:11 - 00:26:08:27
Austen Parrish
You mentioned your website. If one of our listeners was interested in seeing and viewing your work, what's the best way to look at it?
00:26:08:27 - 00:26:25:19
Veronica Gray
Just Google Veronica Gray Photography. It's that simple. Or you can follow me on Instagram and you just need @veronica.m.gray. There's a lot of Veronica Grays out there, which I didn't know.
00:26:25:26 - 00:26:34:04
Austen Parrish
We'll also include those links on the on the podcast notes. Many of our listeners are law students or recently graduated law students who are young lawyers.
00:26:34:04 - 00:26:41:18
Austen Parrish
And I always like to get a sense of what advice you might have for them as they're starting their careers. And is there advice you wish you had received when you were first starting out?
00:26:41:21 - 00:26:54:05
Veronica Gray
Some of the things I've already addressed, but I think it's really important to have a mentor in the legal profession, whether it's another lawyer ... not necessarily in the company.
00:26:54:05 - 00:27:23:05
Veronica Gray
you're working with, a professor, a judge, or people you've met along the way that sometimes you just need a board of advisors. So a mentor or two will really help. I also think you need a good circle of friends in varied professions who you trust and respect and who know you for those times where you need some counsel in addition to going to your spouse or life partner, and be passionate about what you do.
00:27:23:06 - 00:27:47:16
Veronica Gray
If you don't have passion, then you're not in the right position and don't be afraid to change. I think a lot of people are afraid to change, but it's your life. So take control. And even though you're getting advice from other people, always follow your own heart, follow your own intuition. But you really need to be happy with what you're doing, even if you don't know what you're going to do.
00:27:47:16 - 00:28:07:27
Veronica Gray
I had no idea where I was going to wind up when I started. Yes, I knew I wanted to do legal services, but I came with that Spanish background. And then which firm would be the right firm for me? What I was going to do with my career? Did I know I was going to want to do trial work, which I think is probably one of the most stressful areas to practice were, .
00:28:07:27 - 00:28:26:08
Veronica Gray
of course, the corporate lawyers think corporate law is more stressful. That's fair. But I think those are the things, to really like what you do because it's demanding, and you really have to be good at what you do here. It's a very responsible position to your colleagues and to your clients.
00:28:28:00 - 00:28:42:05
Austen Parrish
I think that's great advice. If I take you back even further and think about law school and knowing what you know now after being a successful lawyer, are there things you might have done differently at law school or opportunities you wish you had taken advantage of that perhaps you hadn't?
00:28:42:08 - 00:29:06:09
Veronica Gray
That's a great question. It is interesting ,when I started Syracuse Law School, the year before us, there was only five women students and we had about 25. And the professors were still trying to figure out not to be too harsh on us. We might cry. It was that kind of thing. But I think, I had three years of graduate school under my belt, so that helped me.
00:29:06:14 - 00:29:25:11
Veronica Gray
I think law school for the first year, it could be very challenging, but I also had this backup. If this didn't work out, I had something else to go do. So that helped me a lot. Whether I missed opportunities, I don't know. I don't think so. But I have to give that some thought. I think it was just the first year was just even with my background...
00:29:25:11 - 00:29:30:11
Veronica Gray
I think the first year was just getting to know people in the freshman class.
00:29:30:13 - 00:29:44:03
Austen Parrish
That makes sense. You raise an interesting point. It was a big increase in the number of women in the legal profession, just about the time when you started. And then by the time you got through the 1980s and then in the 1990s, it became much more even, now there's more women in law school.
00:29:44:07 - 00:29:59:02
Austen Parrish
Can you talk a little bit about that? Was it what you expected when you first started practice? Because when you first started, there wasn't many women in senior positions and the very early wave of women had gone. It was just start of a new kind of day where we were starting to see women join in larger numbers. Can you reflect on that?
00:29:59:02 - 00:30:32:13
Veronica Gray
With Legal Aid, I'd say at least half of the attorneys were women and the director at that time, when I was in Orange County was a woman. And then when I moved up to Lake Arrowhead and we opened up the San Bernardino office, it was a good mix of men and women, which is probably not reflective of firms, because when I switched to a very old line firm in San Bernardino, there were very few women, and I happened to become the first woman partner, and I had very senior male mentors there who had been practicing law for quite a long time.
00:30:32:15 - 00:30:54:18
Veronica Gray
And then when I moved down here in '87, there was a sufficient number of women, but there was always that challenge of equalizing. I don't have any ... a lot of people have some really bad stories to tell. I don't have those. You just knew that they were just a lot less women. And typically, I was the only woman in the court. That slowly changed.
00:30:54:20 - 00:31:00:14
Austen Parrish
Big changes both in Orange County and in the composition of the legal profession over the last few decades.
00:31:00:17 - 00:31:10:02
Austen Parrish
It's been wonderful to talk to you. Do you have any last words for our listeners, either for our students or for others, about your career path and success in law or photography?
00:31:10:05 - 00:31:17:09
Veronica Gray
Don't forget about your other passions. The law, as I said, it is really, I found it to be, a 24/7 job to do it well.
00:31:17:11 - 00:31:33:18
Veronica Gray
You never shut off your thinking, but it was very gratifying. I was passionate about it and as I said before, be passionate about what you do, to find the right position for your career life. Have friends along the way and follow your heart.
00:31:33:23 - 00:31:39:17
Austen Parrish
I think that's a great advice here. The main themes of getting good mentors and being passionate and then giving back.
00:31:39:19 - 00:31:47:19
Austen Parrish
You've done so much for Orange County in so many ways. Veronica. It's just been terrific. Thank you for joining us and for being a guest today on UCI Law Talks. We really appreciate it.
00:31:47:21 - 00:31:54:23
Veronica Gray
My pleasure. And good to see you.
00:31:54:26 - 00:32:03:09
Outro
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